Is Practice Ownership Right For You? ‘BossLady’ on Squat Practices – PDP237

Teaser:
The reason I say that is, is because how much your practice is gonna cost depends on, but I did it by reducing clinical day, but I cut down from five to four. What was interesting, my income didn’t change. You know, you have to be honest. Sometimes practices don’t work out. You know, and that’s okay, but–

Jaz’s Introduction:
Practice ownership, it makes a lot of sense. In fact, in a lot of countries that is the culture. You qualify, you buy a practice, you do your own brand of dentistry. You are never truly fulfilled until you are a practice owner. In fact, in some countries, the associates are rare. Now, here in the UK, US, Australia, there is a big associate culture, if you like. There are many associates out there.

And you know what? As an associate, myself, there are so many good things, but there are also some bad things, the lack of control. What if tomorrow a corporate takes over the practice completely changes the culture? It’s what happened to me. And then you have to jump ship and start your patient base all over again. You lose that security, you lose that control and security control are too major reasons we explore today and why one may consider to become a practice owner.

And particularly we’re talking about a squat practice. A squat practice is when you buy a building and you turn it into a dental practice. So whilst the themes we cover in today’s episode with Dr. Shabnam Zai, it does apply to buying an existing dental practice because we talk about leadership, we talk about being the boss, being the principal.

A lot of our advice, especially when we talk about money towards the end, is about when you are doing a startup or a squat. Hello, Protruserati I’m Jaz Gulati, and welcome back to your favorite Dental Podcast. You’ll find out why I don’t think owning a practice is right for me at this stage of life. And maybe never, maybe you’ll never be right for for me, there are a few really good and really important reasons why I hate the idea of running my own practice. So you’ll get to hear about that later, but then you get to hear about so many benefits and good things and why it might be the best thing that ever happened to you, as explained by Shabnam.

The kind of themes that we cover are: Is it right for you to be a practice owner? What are the sacrifices you have to make? What’s the most difficult thing you have to do as a practice owner? How long would it take for you to make a profit? Does it mean that you may have to give up your clinical dentistry? What’s the most challenging thing about being the boss?

Dental Pearl
And so many other themes explored in this one hour podcast. Now this episode is eligible for CE credits as Protrusive Education is a PACE approved education provider, and so when you answer the quiz at the end on the app, you’ll get your CE and CPD. Talking of the app, the app has inspired today’s Protrusive Dental Pearl.

I’d like to give you a quick win at the start of every PDP episode. So, as you know, we built this community of 4,000 of the nicest and geekiest dentists in the world. It’s absolutely magic. Waking up and seeing all these notifications and all these cases being posted, and all the advice that’s being given and all the, just camaraderie and kindness.

Now, I’m very careful about promoting the app outside of the podcast. We have a very niche audience here of either the most engaged and caring dentists in the world, or dentists who want to be more engaged with what they do, and they’ve all found a home in Protrusive guidance. So if you’re not part of it, check out Protrusive.app that’s the website, www.protrusive.app. Make your account at the time of publishing, it is free to make an account. There are paid plans available if you want amazing value that we offer, but you can just join the community and meet your tribe. You can then download the app on iOS and Android.

But recently Hannah Cooper for a dentist student in Slovakia posted a case and she said deep breath this is my first anterior case, and she felt really beat up by it. Okay. And I thought she’s being very critical of herself bless her. Okay. So she did some good work. And what I love is that Hannah, she made herself vulnerable. She really put it out there as like, guys, can you help me? And the advice that was given, the reflections by the Protruserati, shout out to the usual suspects.

Okay, Mohammad Mozaffari, an absolute legend on the app, so giving with this time. So just a massive shout out to Mohammad. Massive shout out to Richard Coates. I love it every time you dissect a protocol, and I just love how deeply you think. Also, Richard did a special podcast episode just for us private podcast on the app, all about finances and the importance of investing as a dentist, you know, and saving money for the future.

So you can check that out as well. And then Michael King, again michael King is another one of those dentists on the platform, which are just so giving with their time and expertise. So his is the pearl that I picked for today. Okay, he says, something that we’ve echoed on this podcast before and it’s relevant for everyone, whether you’re starting a new practice and then you’re looking at other people, or you are wanting to be better at clinical dentistry.

Whatever it may be. His advice was in capital letters. Do not compare your work to what you see on social media. Much of what you see on social media is done by clinicians with thousands of hours of practice behind them. They’re also often showing the very best work carried out and the ideal conditions would superbly helpful and compliant patients.

This is so true. More often not, this is simply not comparable to the real world. 99% of us work in a daily basis. Aspire always. Okay. So whenever you see something online, respect it, be inspired, aspire towards it. Achieve occasionally, right? Understand that you’ll not be able to achieve that kind of result all the time.

But occasionally when you put the graft in, you can do it. But being very aware that social media isn’t quite real life, always be very aware. Michael continued to say that social media is one reason why many fantastic and very talented people from all walks of life and all professions suffer from imposter syndrome to the detriment of their mental health and the wellbeing of their clients.

In my honest opinion, being so reflective, so early in career bodes well, and I certainly wish I had the confidence you have shown at that stage in my career. Carry on carrying on this lot here will always support and help. And Michael, like I thank you so much for the support and help you offer to all Protruserati on the app.

And now, yes, I do want to applaud Hannah myself for being brave enough to post a case that didn’t go so perfect. And look at the learning. Look how much you gain from it. Look how much all we all. Gain from it. So what are your take home actions? Stop comparing yourself to stuff you see on social media and join protrusive guidance. Instead of duals scrumming on Instagram and Facebook, and seeing all those toxic fights that happen on Facebook.

Come and join the nicest and geekiest dentist in the world on protrusive guidance. And with that, let’s join the main episode with Shabnam. Catch you in the outro.

Main Episode:
Dr. Shaza, welcome to the Protrusive Podcast. So nice to finally see you. Third time, lucky childcare reasons we had to postpone today, and I’m so pleased to be speaking to you. How are you doing?

[Shabnam]
I’m really well, thank you, Jaz How are you? 

[Jaz]
Yes, I’m very good. I don’t know much about you and I’m excited to find out. Like my provisional title was Boss Lady, right? Startup–

[Shabnam] That by the way, because that’s not something that I really define myself as. So when I saw that, I loved it. 

[Jaz]
Well, how do you define yourself? Let’s start with that question, Shana. What defines Dr. Shaza? Tell us about yourself. 

[Shabnam]
So I am a dentist, I’m a mom, I’m a practice owner, I’m a coach, I’m an educator, I’m a speaker. Now, I actually have my own podcast and it’s strange because Jaz if you spoke to me two years ago, a lot of those titles didn’t exist, and I have really embraced myself actually in these last few years.

I think early on in my career, I really defined myself as a dentist. And what I’ve realized over the years is there’s much more to me than dentistry, and I like investigating it now and experiencing it and teaching others about it because I think you can get so much joy out of life. I get a little bit upset actually when some dentists don’t enjoy work because I really, really love dentistry.

I always have done 22 years in. I still really love being a dentist, but I think over that time I’ve had to challenge myself and do different things to keep myself engaged and active and content really.

[Jaz]
I share this same thing about you where I find it so sad when people are not engaged at work. If you look at the Gallup polls and stuff about workplaces around the world, that’s something like 87% of people who work are disengaged with what they do. And so I think of a dentist while they’re placing a composite, they’re looking at their clock watching, that’s like the worst position to be in, right? I want everyone to be really in love thinking about the tubules, thinking about the enamel being etched, like really engrossed in flow and what they’re doing.

And so the mission of Protrusive the last six years has always been to fall in love with dentistry again. And I think part of that is continuing to learn, never staying stagnant, always changing things up for the betterment, not for the sake of changing up, but to be a better you than you were yesterday. So I definitely share that about you. And one thing I’m excited to unpack today is, you mentioned you’re a mom and a lot of the questions I have are centered around that because the vast majority of practice owners that I know are male. There are more women dentists now than male dentists, especially now 65- 70% from what I’m hearing of dental intakes, students are women, which is fantastic, but I want to know more about how you juggle it, that balancing act, that juggling act of motherhood, parenthood, and dentistry.

So I guess, can I start with that? Can you tell me your journey about when you qualified and then when you look back now, what were the stages that led you to where you are today? When did you first consider practice ownership? Did you fall into it? Was it always a drive that you had within you? 

[Shabnam]
So when I qualified in my VT year, so for the younger listeners that’s FD and my principal mentioned, “Oh in about five years time I might be selling, would you be interested?” And I was like, “Absolutely.” And if I’m honest, as that was the first time I actually thought about owning a practice, it wasn’t really a dream of mine. I just kind of fell into dentistry. In fact, I didn’t wanna be a dentist, I wanted to do chemistry. I just changed my mind at the last minute.

And so he offered that and I was quite excited. And I’m a bit of a core. I love learning. So I threw myself into skilling up and the desire to grow was always there. So I scaled up on composites, on Invisalign, on crown lengthening, implants, everything. And then time went on and I was a really good associate and I was building up the practice. And then I kept going back to my principal saying, “Oh, when should we become partners or when you’re gonna sell?” And time was going on. And if I’m honest, the defining factor for me was having my daughter. So I had my daughter and when you have kids, you’re like, “I really want my kids to fulfill their dreams.” And in that moment I realized I wasn’t fulfilling mine. I was waiting on someone else’s decision before I moved forward with mine, and that’s when I kind of thought I needed to do something else in case this doesn’t happen.

So then I started looking at practice ownership and it was a long process. I personally don’t like doing things on my own, so I always wanted to do it in partnership. I had a couple of dentists that were interested in setting up practice with me, and I spent five years looking to buy a practice. I’m based in northwest London.

[Jaz]
That’s a long time. 

[Shabnam]
Yeah. And I was eight months pregnant. And they’re kind of looking at me going, “Are you sure you want to be doing this?” And I kind of was a bit frustrated with that because opportunities are rare. Practices in London are even rare. Especially where I wanted to live, so I couldn’t really miss the opportunity just because I chose to have a child.

So I kind of wanted to proceed anyway. And if I’m honest, there was a lot of negative comments about me being a female mother buying practice. 

[Jaz]
Wow. 

[Shabnam]
To the point where– 

[Jaz]
Who were they from? Who was saying these negative things? 

[Shabnam]
So interestingly, when I found my location, I wasn’t expecting to set up a squat. I was always looking to buy and there’s a lot of stuff I didn’t know and I looked back on that time and it was incredibly stressful and overwhelming. because I just didn’t know what I didn’t know. And I remember going around the showcase with a video of this location being asked more questions and not knowing the answers to them.

And I remember there’s an accountant then, and then he was giving me the stats of how many squats failed. And then he started sending me articles on it afterwards, and I’m like, I’m trying to hire you as an accountant to facilitate this purchase, and you are actually telling me stuff not to do it. And he’s like, I’m not sure you’re a lady, like you’ve got young kids it’s gonna be a lot. And if I’m honest, at that moment it kind of made me a bit more determined to do it. 

[Jaz]
It had the opposite effect, very good. As someone called Grant Cardone says,” There are haters and then there are naysayers.” And so what this accountant, he falls into the category of a naysayer he doesn’t want you to fail, okay? But it’s a bit like when you tell a spouse or someone you love, or your parents, you want to do something and they just want you to have a nice, easy life. Right? Because they love you and they say, “Listen, are you sure you want to do this? You want to take it easy?” They’re not haters, they are naysayers.

And you sometimes need to listen to that inner voice, it sounds like you did. And ignore that because that’s just noise. You need to cut through that to get to your focus, get to your goal. And so tell us how that evolved and when you actually ended up getting practice and how did you come to that decision?

[Shabnam]
So after five years of looking to buy, we realized that we weren’t finding things. And my business partner’s husband actually said, “Why don’t you set up your own?” And we hadn’t really considered it at that time. You needed D1 planning permission. So we just started looking at sites and we looked at sites. And then what happens when you’ve got two kids under four and you find your dream location?

So Nikita and I sat down six years earlier and wrote down what we wanted from our dream practice. We wanted a half an hour commute. We wanted to be a private practice, not a specialist. We even divided up, I was gonna do compliance, she was gonna do accounts very early on, get that very clear out of the way. And we wanted three surgeries, step-free, all these things, parking, and we got it. There’s a park in northwest London. So my dental practice is in a park, and it’s three surgeries, step-free, six minutes drive from my house. 

[Jaz]
Wow. 

[Shabnam]
And it just happened, and Nikita just started maternity leave on Friday, so she was nine months pregnant when we found it. We went to see her on the Monday. She gave birth on Thursday. And Friday I was at the showcase trying to figure out how to set up a practice. 

[Jaz]
I love that it came to be, and I think the lesson from that, from a lot of the books I read about motivation, self-development, one of the lessons I learned is we are goal seeking beings. The way our brain works is that it hones in on a goal and then you kind of have to set this goal and kind of let the universe work it out for you. 

[Shabnam]
That’s why I pay Jaz write stuff down. I’m already–

[Jaz]
I love that.

[Shabnam] Writing stuff. Even when I told you this podcast, I wrote it down and then for whatever reason it didn’t happen. And I was like, “It’s gonna happen.” And it did. 

[Jaz]
And so once you have that vision, you trust the universe to make it happen. Your subconscious mind actually works behind the scenes to pick decisions to make it happen. I’m a big believer in that actually. Now I use someone who’s quick at making decisions or are you generally someone who labors about it, thinks about it. So tell us about that. 

[Shabnam]
Yeah, so as I’m now a business owner, I am very quick at making decisions. What I realized one of the most successful outcomes of building my practice was that we made such quick decisions that from signing the lease to finishing the build was 8 weeks. Like it was fast. And at the time we didn’t appreciate that, but it came down to making quick decisions. I’m normally a researcher. I like to analyze things, read everything, and consider things.

[Jaz]
They seem counterintuitive. How can I be a researcher and analytical yet make quick decisions at the same time? Tell me about that. 

[Shabnam]
So you divide and conquer, so you kind of decide on the things you need. So contracts that I’m signing, like I’m doing clinical waste at the minute and they’re signing me in for 3 years and I’m like, “I don’t wanna sign for 3 years. I need to know those terms.” Because I’m financial cost of the practice. What kind of door handles we have, that’s a quick decision. Sometimes I go to my gut. I think nowadays I listen to my gut more than ever. 

There’s been times in interviews when I’ve kind of given people the benefit of the doubt saying, “Oh, I can train them. I can kind of build them up and in my gut, I kind of knew at the interview it wasn’t quite right. And it came true. So now I just stick to my gut and I kind of know what’s right for me, and I think that’s what you need to know.

So what’s right for me might not be right for you. My values are different to you, although some of our values will overline, some don’t. And as long as I pick what’s right for me, and that’s the best thing about Nikita, my business partner, we have very similar values. So if I’m not there and she makes a decision, I wholeheartedly know she’s gonna make the same decision as I am.

Which makes me feel very safe, being in that partnership. And we have a very similar outlook on dentistry and the practice, so some people go into practice to make money, they have a business. That wasn’t our rationale. We did it for job security. We like doing dentistry a certain way with certain materials.

As moms, we had to kind of start work a bit late, finish a bit early. Our husbands also had demanding careers and not all principles would allow you to do that in the practice. 

[Jaz]
That controls you getting.

[Shabnam]
That in the practices we in, because we’d worked there for so long and built up loyalty and that, but we knew in the future they were gonna be bought out by corporations. And that practice that I was going to buy is now so expensive. I couldn’t afford it anyway, so I knew I was a brilliant associate. I built the practice up, but at the end of the day, none of that goodwill belonged to me. 

And then I worked in Wimpole Street, so I was working at the NHS one day working in Wimpole Street the next day. It was like seeing an exempt patient and then charging 400 pounds for a checkup like when I say I’ve done it all. I just went out there and tried stuff and what it made me realize is that for me, the patient’s the most important thing and for me to be able to control their environment, how they’re treated, kind of really just building what I wanted. How are my patients to be treated and have that job security for myself. That was the reason I set up a practice so I could practice dentistry. How I like to do it without anyone telling me I can’t. And I will take the financial risk for that because that’s okay at the end of the day.

[Jaz]
I like the theme of security there. People often go in about how can I eventually make profit and then have my exit plan, retirement plan and all that, I guess comes with it. But to have that control and security, and there’s various reasons we could explore. Someone might buy a practice, but just peddling back a bit. One quote that reminded me of when you were talking about making, being quick to make decisions is one of my favorite quotes, is that successful people are quick to make decisions and slow to change them again. And then unsuccessful people are slow to make decisions and then very quick to then change them basically. 

[Shabnam]
Yeah, the thing you not making a decision is the worst decision. The people are so, I meet so much–

[Jaz]
People who have sat on the fence.

[Shabnam]
Yeah. They’re so worried about making the wrong choice. What I’ve realized in life is bad stuff happens to me all the time. People look at me and they think that, “Oh wow, you’ve got it all. You’re married, two kids, got your practice.” I’ve had an incredibly hard life, but at the end of the day, I don’t treat it as a barrier to me. I just think life happens. How I react to it, when stuff does happen, how I manage it, that’s what makes me successful. I know that whatever happens in life, I’m going to negotiate it because I have to, what other choice do I have? And at the end of the day, sometimes these things happen for us, not to us.

And a lot of dentists I speak to because I didn’t know what I didn’t know. And if I’m honest, I could have enjoyed the process of setting up a practice a lot more if there was a bit more guidance, but at that time there weren’t these amazing face groups. There weren’t these podcasts, there weren’t all these people out there mentoring. Like none of this existed then. And actually people gave me very superficial like advice on how to set up a practice.

So I didn’t really know till I did it. And now I realize 70% I could have done in advance. I could enjoyed it a lot more. And it’s mainly, it was like I wanted a checklist because I’m quite post court driven and there wasn’t one. So I made my own checklist and now I help other dentists and I give them my checklist and I just take that pressure off them.

But actually nowadays with chat GPT, you could just type in and say, give me a checklist of how to set up a squat practice. So was the value in what I give them isn’t really the checklist, it’s that understanding and that mindset that it’s possible showing them how to navigate those obstacles when they face them. Because when I was building my squat, my son got pneumonia. He was in hospital for three days. Like, what do I do? Stop building? No, I’m still going to work. I have capacity to manage that, but that’s life, and you just have to kind of embrace that there’s hardness in it, and running a practice is incredibly hard.

I tell people that all the time, it’s not easy, but I’m a different person to who I was seven years ago, and there is no course in the planet that could teach me the skillset that I have now. So for someone that likes to grow, it was good for me. And what I’ve learned most is that in dentistry, whilst clinical dentistry is good, I love clinical dentistry. I Still do lots and lots of courses and masters and everything. But actually we need to learn to invest in ourselves a bit more in our own skill sets, like manage ourselves as people better.

And I think one of the questions you wanted to ask me was about what do I find hardest as a practice principal? And I’ll be honest, the hardest thing for me is actually time management. Because as soon as you manage your time well, like you allocate time to a job, I’m the kind of person, I just get it done. But if you don’t have the time for it, then you have to start prioritizing things and so you can’t–

[Jaz]
Well, that’s what it is. Time management is simply priorities. If someone says, I don’t have time for the gym. It’s because gym is 6. They only have time for five priorities and gym is a sixth priority or a seventh priority. When you make something a priority that’s in your top priorities, time is no longer an issue anymore. I learned that slowly over time. So you have to make it a priority and you have to be a little bit smart and delegate and allow a team to be empowered to do all the things so you can lift it off your shoulders so you can actually do the bigger picture things. Have you read the book, the E-Myth Revisited? 

[Shabnam]
No. 

[Jaz]
Have you heard about it? 

[Shabnam] I have. Yeah. 

[Jaz]
So it’s about everyone when they’re in a business, the Technician, so the Technician is like the dentist. The dentist who’s doing day in, day out, they’re doing the restorations, the associate going home, not having to worry about it. Just because they’re good at doing an MOD composite or an onlay or veneer, doesn’t mean that there’ll be a great. Manager.

And just because if you’re a great manager, doesn’t mean you’ll make a great entrepreneur. So when you are in your position, you kind of have to either wear all three hats, which is very difficult you have to be the technician, IE you’re working clinically in your Scott, you’re being the manager, and you’re being the entrepreneur, the marketing and sales behind everything, that’s your vision. So to do those three are very difficult. So which one of those three do you identify yourself with? And then where do you get the other two varieties from in your business? 

[Shabnam]
So it’s interesting. So my practice is now seven years old and I wear all those hats and when I first started out, I wasn’t going to do marketing because that was Nikita’s thing. You know, we made that list seven years earlier. And what I found was I’m actually very good at marketing, networking, and building the practice. In fact, I think 30% of patients come to the practice because of me and the random things I do, I can’t even quantify what I do. 

[Jaz]
Tell us more about that. Can you tell you 30%? Is that google AdWords? Is that you going to networking events? Is it you putting a poster up in a local news agents? Like what do you mean by your attribution?

[Shabnam]
So when they come to the practice, they say, how did you hear about the practice? They heard about it through me. So whether it’s a school mom or the local cafe owner or going to a networking event or some of my old dentist, my old trainees. I used to be a VT trainer. They come to my practice, so patients come from everywhere. 

I have a lot of patients that travel really far as well to come see me which is really nice. And so they just me, and that’s why I tell people about dentistry, like so many people are worried about squats opening up. I opened my squat up, another one opened up, but since I’ve opened up, maybe like 10 have opened up within a two mile radius.

[Jaz]
Wow. 

[Shabnam]
And when I say close, within 500 meters of my door. Like very close. I’m not worried because they’re not me. It’s not a female led practice in a park. It’s not me. And what I give and what they give is different and their patients are really happy with them. And my patients are really happy with me and my practice and my ethos and my vision and my practice is very much designed how I wanted my practice to feel.

And people that like that, I kind of get the patients that suit my practice, which is amazing. When before that didn’t always happen. Going back to those hats, so recently i’ve kind of been sitting down and you know, whilst I can do everything, I’m competent at everything. What am I really genius at? That’s what I really sat down and thought about. And as a result, I’ve actually decided I’m gonna do more clinical days. because my genius is with patients. I love that interaction. It gives me so much joy. That’s what I love.

My business partner, she actually realized she likes doing more than management. So now we are changing our roles slightly where she’s taking some of the managerial roles off me that I’ve been doing for the last six years, and she’s doing it and she’s actually really enjoying it.

And what she’s good at doing is outsourcing and delegating. So now she’s getting other people to do the menial task, and then she’s doing more of the oversight marketing. And you don’t know until you try stuff. So we’ve just learned over time, and as I get older, I really love patients. Even when I’m not seeing patients, I’m in my office chatting to the ones at reception. So yeah, that’s my genius, I’d say now–

[Jaz]
How many days clinical are you now? 

[Shabnam]
I’m doing two clinical days a week. 

[Jaz]
See, yeah, you would do six days, right? Yeah. So a lot of people who love dentistry, they think that, okay, if I wanna love dentistry, then I wanna continue doing it. And then they might open a practice and then very soon they might realize, hang on, everything else is collapsing. because I’m too clinical. I also need to be a business owner to take a step back and work on the business rather than in the business. And that could be a potential mistake.

And then I heard somewhere, this is just Facebook, University of Facebook, where it says that once you get to a point, when you own four practices, you either have to really scale down, if that’s even a word, your clinical activities, or give up your clinical. And the magic number was 4 apparently. Any thoughts on that? 

[Shabnam]
So my aim was never to have more than one practice. Like I said, I just wanted job security. I wanted a space where I could treat patients how I wanted. So my aim was never to go more than one. I was talking to a dentist recently who’s working four and a half five days, and he wants to set up his own practice and I said, work four days from now. 

And he was kind of like, “oh, but,” and I said, “You need to get your head out the hourly rate thing that if I cut a day, I am losing money. Because you can spend that day investing it in yourself, building your dream to make it a fruition sooner. And actually that time you’re going to get back tenfold. And when you have a practice, you need that day for admin anyway. So just start setting yourself in that rhythm now. So then when it happens, it’s natural for you.

And when I set up the practice, I was working six days a week because the bank wouldn’t give me a loan, unless if I gave up my associate job. So I was working at Wimpole Street, I was working in that, my VT practice, and I was working in my clinic and that part, my son was 2, my daughter was 5 But I had to prepare my family for it, we had discussions. I built up the support network so I could be successful. I think when you have a business, you have to be realistic of what you need from your family. So on Monday I went for a date with my daughter. We went to Leicester Square, watched a movie, went to Chinatown for dinner.

I like on purpose, I prioritize having a date with my kids. I don’t do that every day. because obviously I’m busy. But they don’t need me a lot. I realize they just need me a little. And I’ve always told them if you need me to tell me. So my son called me the other day and said, “Oh mommy, can you take me to football one Saturday?” And I was like, “Sure, it’s not gonna be this Saturday because I’m working, but I will take you.” 

And then I do, I keep my promises. Same with my husband. So I kind of have that communication and that again, something I’ve learned you meant saying, how do I manage my family life? I just have to be honest and also, my family want me to be successful. Like initially I thought I was taking me away from my family and working more days than I was before, but I knew in the future, like now I can close my diary and go to sports day. I can pick, drop my son to school today. I actually have more time with them now and–

[Jaz]
As a parent, I think it’s about quality of time rather than quantity of time. Like if you’re just giving four hours in a day, but then you are also doing the house chores while you are looking after them and stuff, that’s not focused time. It’s much better to give them one and a half hours of really focus eye to eye, really every facet is explored in your relationship during that, rather than multitasking, trying to do the chores and trying to do emails as you are also looking after them making them do homework, it’s much better to do it, like you suggested.

[Shabnam]
But Jaz I didn’t know that. I figured it out and that’s why I’m now doing these kind of things because you said you didn’t know me. I don’t need anyone to know me. I’m not like really want to be famous or anything, but I just wanna see people, what’s possible. And there’s people that have done it before you that I, in fact, as a dentist I was working with and she wanted to buy the practice she was working in. 

So, but she messaged me, she said, “I actually don’t know what a principal does.” So she’s like, “I’m just being honest. I work in the day I don’t know what they do. So I said, “Sure, I’ll tell you that.” And then she was having some issues with her practice manager and anyway, so I ended up coaching her and as well as building the skillset of being a principal.

I think you need to pretend to be a principal before you become one. So you need to treat yourself like a business. How would a principal act in the situation. Anyway, it transpires the practice she was working in. After asking some challenging questions to the practice manager. Practice manager actually did fraud on the practice for about 50 grand, which came to night.

She left and I was like, look, you are gonna buy this practice. Anyway, we sat down and kind of made her goals and everything, and actually over the course of a year and a half, like she was renting a flat and she actually really wanted to have another baby. She wanted to buy a dream house. 

There’s a lot of things she wanted to do having that time to sit down and really invest in herself. She invested an hour every week. I went to see her in February in Manchester, and I was in there in her new house next to this big kitchen island that she’d always dreamed of carrying her baby. And I was like, two years ago, this was impossible. You told me this was impossible. And she said, yeah, I can’t believe it.

Sometimes when you take a step back, you can actually take a bigger step forward. And people, sometimes the dentist are just in the routine of just going to work, coming home, doing the things, going to work the next day, have do this, have, do that. And actually that’s kind of, you lose a bit of the joy and actually sometimes when you celebrate little things on the way, the little things, I’m not saying you need to go on tropical holiday, like, I like just having a cup of tea in my garden. That’s a win for me. It doesn’t have to be massive, but just planting those little bits of joy your day, it get, builds your confidence.

There’s a way and people can help you see that for yourself. And I don’t know if you’ve ever had a coach, but having a coach–

[Jaz]
I do. 

[Shabnam]
Yeah. I can tell 

[Jaz]
It is very empowering, the role of a coach, is to get it out of you. Everything I’m realizing now is already inside me. All the things I need to do, I already know I need to do them. But a coach is just surfacing. 

[Shabnam]
Yeah.

[Jaz]
It’s resurfacing and accountability is real magic in that I think a couple of themes that– 

[Shabnam]
I didn’t have anyone to help me do that, and I feel like now try not to regret, but I could have done this years ago, but it’s okay it happens when it happens. I’m happy where I am now.

[Jaz]
You could have done it perhaps with the faster, better, cheaper, all those things, right? All the benefits of having someone as a mentor, as a coach. Is that what you mean? 

[Shabnam]
Yeah. And it doesn’t have to be about dentistry as well. That’s what I’m trying to tell people. It’s like we define ourselves too much as being a, a dentist. And I think now that I’m trying not to do that, being a dentist is part of my life, but I’m also a business owner. I’m also a wife and a sister and a mom and you know, I try and be whole. 

[Jaz]
I love that. And I think literally today I shared on my story, I wanna just take 20 seconds just to mention this, right? It’s on my story now. I shared it from someone, is that how we are taught to measure success is job title is like a pie chart, job title, and then the other half is salary. A better measure of success, which I wholeheartedly believe in there’s like 8 pizza slices if you like, to this pie, right? 

Good relationships, financial health, free time, making a difference, lifelong learning, liking what you do career and good health and wellbeing. That for me is a much better measure of success and I think it goes in tandem with what you say. I mean, that should be like blown up and put everywhere and I’m loving the themes that you are exploring.

One thing I’m gonna touch on is I get asked all the time, Shabnam,” Jaz I can see you. I see you have leadership qualities.” Look, I was president of SUDS at Dental School. I’ve always taken on leadership roles, i’ve always been happy to. I’m a leader in Team Protrusive. There’s 10 people in Team Protrusive now, I manage all these people. So I’m an entrepreneur in that. Thank you so much so I have all those things it can get very busy running this education business and whatnot, and I love it. I love what I do. 

And so people always tell me Jaz Why don’t you run a practice? And two reasons. One is I already have my project. I already have something that I get fulfillment from. And for me, running a practice would be a distraction from my bigger aim of making dentistry tangible.

But number 2, and this is the one I really wanna pick your head on, is I absolutely categorically hate compliance. Like I hate reading contract. I’ll be honest with you, I don’t even read any contact. Associate principal, I go by trust. And the day that I have to pick up the contract and read it, that’s the end. Like, you might as well rip it in half. I’m old school i’m old fashioned that way, okay? And I know that’s not the way to do it i’m not condoning it.

The point I’m trying to make Shabnam is I’ve got enough self-awareness to know what I’m like, what my values are, and I am gonna be miserable and terrible at compliance. The only way I could do it is like you, by teaming up with someone whereby the other person, like in my practice I work in now as a very happy associate, Chris does all the boring stuff, the compliance stuff and John does more the clinical director kind of stuff. 

That I can see myself doing with someone, but I just hate the compliance. So do you think there’s a certain personality type that would suit practice ownership and all those extra responsibilities of compliance, CQC all that kind of BS that I absolutely hate.

[Shabnam]
So I do compliance. Okay. When I worked in Wimpole Street, I remember they had their CQC– 

[Jaz]
You’re far too fascinating. 

[Shabnam]
And I was like– 

[Jaz]
How? 

[Shabnam]
Picking things on the wall or like, and I was like putting this above the taps and he’s like, what are you doing? I was like, you’re gonna lose marks for this and I came in the morning early and I did, like I say I was a superstar associate, but it takes a lot of time. Compliance takes. 10 hours a week. I’m a bit of a control freak. I can’t delegate stuff, but you need good people to delegate to. What I would say is, if you don’t like compliance, it’s okay.

Now. There’s so many things out there that you can delegate it. It’s a task it can be delegated. You can hire someone to do it, but at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter whether you set it up yourself in calendar tasks or whether you have a compliance portal to do, there is a human being that has to do it. 

If you don’t wanna do it, you just have to hire someone to do it, and you’ve gotta hire someone that’s meticulous and organized and persistent because getting people to sign policies every year is soul destroying. Getting people to send me CPD certificates, like my associate’s great to send it to me, but I have to compile it, I have to organize it. It doesn’t bring me joy. 

[Jaz]
Same here and I would hate, I would absolutely hate through that. That would completely set the fun out of practice ownership for me. 

[Shabnam]
But people say what? Practice ownership. But I was talking to another dentist the other day, and he unfortunately has scoliosis of his spines. He’s just qualified and he’s an FD and he is thinking about setting up a practice. And I said, but why practice? Why not something else? You don’t have to do business with dentistry. Dentistry could be your career and you could do something. I know people that are dentists and then have other things they do.

[Jaz]
Well, dentistry is vocational, but if you look at physics, some stat like 70 to 90% of those who study physics go into finance. And so, if you think of it like that, then yeah, when you do dentistry, you get all these skills and evidence-based and being analytical and sociable and personal but you can pivot.

[Shabnam]
In COVID, I am a dentist, I’m a practice owner overnight. Everything stopped. My son was shielding, so I couldn’t even do clinical. I didn’t do clinical for nearly a year. So in that situation, I was really vulnerable. I couldn’t work as an associate. I was basically my receptionist for my practice, and the practice was actually shut for four months, nearly five, I think. And it made me realize how vulnerable I was, and I was really upset with myself that I didn’t have any other external income.

[Jaz]
Do you think that having a business-like practice gives you that extra layer of protection? 

[Shabnam]
No. I felt that I didn’t, because I was a private practice. I got no funding, nothing. It made me vulnerable. I had to find money to pay the bills, to pay the staff. I had no income coming in. It was a squat. 

[Jaz]
So you’re disappointed in yourself, but then based on that experience, have you changed anything about your sources of income or anything like that to shield yourself to, God forbid a COVID Part two?

[Shabnam]
And I’m looking to buy an investment property. I set up my online course teaching dentists how to set up their squat practice, and I now coach people as well. 

[Jaz]
Okay, good. So that’s diversifying. And so you’ve got your business hat now, and you’ve been through that period of being a practice owner during a time where nothing was working. And so you’ve decided that, okay, you can’t put all your eggs in one basket, which is the lesson there basically. Have you ever done an exercise like strengths finder? 

[Shabnam]
Yeah. 

[Jaz]
You’ve done that, right? And so, or going back to that self-awareness and knowing your strengths and knowing what you’re good at. One strength, which I think is really important to have as a practice owner is managing people and being able to listen to them and inspiring them. And just generally being a people person. 

Are you and your partner both that way minded, or is one of you better with dealing with your team and having conversations, those really important conversations with your team? How do you split that up? And then my follow up question will be, as everyone has said, who’ve ever owned a practice, staff is the most stressful and most difficult thing.

[Shabnam]
Yes, definitely. So, when I first thought of a principal, I thought of someone very alpha, very dominating, very like, this is how we’re doing it. Very dominating, and that’s not me. So that’s why I thought I could be a principal. I’m more collaborative. I have a lot of empathy, and firing people for me was very difficult. I do the firing in the practice, and the reason I do it is because I wanted to challenge myself, so I had to find a way to do it that I felt comfortable with. And the way I did it is with metrics. 

So I measure things, I have my values. And often because I measure things so well. The people that are on probation normally come to me and say, “I’m not doing very well. I think I should leave.” Which is great. So I found a system now where people themselves identify that they don’t fit with my practice. Not that they’ve, I never hire anyone that’s bad. I have lovely staff, but they identify themselves. They don’t have the right values to fix with how the rest of the team works.

So that kind of has happened over time. I’m more soft and chatty and talk a lot, and sometimes the message gets lost in all the chat and the key is a lot more direct. And I think to be a leader, you need to be more direct. You just have to be very clear and then you have to follow up with it in written words. I lead my way, I’m very much a team builder. I’m very collaborative, but I think Nikita is much better at getting things done. Does that answer your question? 

[Jaz]
It does. But then what is the most difficult scenario you’ve had surrounding staffing and people management? Can you share a story that might shed some light to these difficulties that one must expect to face if they own a practice?

[Shabnam]
I think it’s just I have high standards. Like, I’ve had nurses in the past that don’t want to perform to my standards and I don’t wanna come down to them. So I just say, “This is what I’m expecting.” And then I go, “This is what I would like you to do.” I probably think the hardest thing for me is making time to have those conversations. You need to have them regularly. You need to document them. That’s the hardest thing I find. 

If you document things, well then, from a HR perspective, everything is easy. because everything’s been documented. You’ve given them opportunities and things like that. Nikita laughs at me, she’s like, “Whenever we have a problem in the practice, I’m like, oh, isn’t it great that happened?” And she’s like, “What do you mean it’s great That happened?” And I said, “Well now we know how to deal with it.” She’s like laughing. I’ve always happened to see the good side in everything that happens to me, even if it’s terrible. So I think that’s why I’m struggling to find a particular terrible thing. Because I don’t feel anything. 

[Jaz]
I think it’s because, like you said, you know, hiring and firing and the fact that people don’t meet your standards. But then again, you use that as an opportunity to grow and systematize or improve the protocol so that you know something never happens again. And so that’s a lesson in itself. I wanna talk about the Forever associate, because that’s a trend I’m seeing. I’m a fan of it obviously because and I’m in that category where I’m like, I’m happy to be an associate.

I went through that period that you discussed earlier in the episode whereby I was very happy working in Summertown Oxford. Beautiful practice, lovely patients, I loved it there. I was looking for a property to buy near there. Me and my wife were gonna move there kind of thing, but a corporate took over, and everything turned to sh–. It just went upside down. 

The culture was lost, it just sapped out all the energy. I was miserable. I went from absolutely thriving and happy to miserable. The clinical dentistry, I was still the same, but the environment and the culture shifted so much that I had to leave. But I’m very good at making, like I said, quick decisions. I recognize, okay, this isn’t for me anymore. I moved on from there.

And so I like the idea that you said about the whole security and protection for any associate. We are left vulnerable because the day the practice gets sold or changes hands, you are not in control of that anymore. So I completely respect that you said that. However, there is a very happy cohort of associates who earn well, they get home, they don’t have to worry about the light is not working or the suction pumps. 

So that’s not working a recurring theme in our practice at the moment, and they can just not have to worry about that aspect of running the practice. The patients are pretty much given to them, although nowadays associates are really good at bringing their own patients in. What advice would you give to these happy associates. Do you think they should change because you strongly feel that everyone should have a business? What are your thoughts on that? 

[Shabnam]
So I would say I became a better associate once I became a principal. because I can see both sides now, and I understand the challenges a principal faces. I also can see the opportunities. So when I went back as an associate, I was different. I printed my own price list, I organized my own open days, I promoted myself in a way that I never had before. I just kind of sat there and expected things to come to me. I just do whatever was there. I was a bit more proactive thinking, actually, no, I have more control over the situation. 

I can make it even better, I can improve things here. I can improve the materials and the equipment. I always have brought my own equipment anyway, but I brought more things that I like, things that I didn’t wanna be without. So I felt more happy as an associate because my clinical dentistry was beautiful. It doesn’t matter where I’m doing it.

So I’m a better associate because I became a principal saying that if you’re a forever associate, just be happy with it. I think a lot of people just wish they, “Oh, I should do this, I should do that.” That dentist I mentioned that bought the lovely house and had the baby at the end of the day, maybe practice ownership at that moment in time wasn’t right. Maybe it will be in the future, like be open to it, but don’t say definitely no, but don’t say definitely, yes. 

Maybe you’ll be an associate forever and that’s gonna be the right decision. I think you need to know what your priorities are in life, and then you have to see whether the practice ownership aligns with that. And if it does, you do it. And if it doesn’t, you don’t and you’d be happy with it. I think people regret things too much and I think you just shouldn’t be happy with what you want and don’t feel you have to compare yourself to other people and do what others are doing. 

[Jaz]
I think there’s totally a place for the Happy Forever associate. However, one thing I will say is that, I agree with you that you don’t have to have a practice, but one thing I strongly believe in as a personal value is that everyone should have a project or projects on the go. And so I never really resonated with the term goals. People always say, Hey, Jaz what’s your goal with Protrusive? 

And I’m like, “I’m just enjoying making content and serving and making dentists fall in love dentistry again.” But what is your goal? And then I never understood that until I read the book Psycho-Cybernetics by Maxwell Maltz. And a lot of people don’t get it when they say goals. But then he said if you switch the word goals for projects, suddenly it makes sense to you. And I’ve always had projects. So Protrusive started as a project. Now I’ve got Intaglio making mentorship accessible to all dentists. I’ve got the education, I’ve always got these projects on the go.

So even if you are a happy associate, I feel as though to have something that you can call your own, something to build on. Now this could be a gardening, a really good gardening project. It could be that it doesn’t have to actually make you money or anything, but having projects on the go, something to really think about, something to pour your love and energy into. If it’s a business, great, that’s amazing as well. But I’m a big fan of everyone having projects and not just staying stagnant, always having something to work towards.

[Shabnam]
Definitely, and I think you said it really well because that’s what I’m saying. You shouldn’t just be a dentist, you should be a person. You should have hobbies, you should invest in your health. I was working five days a week. I cut down to four, and on that fourth day I said, I just wanna improve my clinical skills. I’m not quite sure how I want to do it. I did a course with a guy called Richard Porter, and he was–

[Jaz]
Legend. 

[Shabnam]
Yeah I think it was a registrar at the time at St. George’s. He said, you should apply for the clinical assistant job. I was like, okay. So I did. I didn’t get it the first time. I got it the second time, so every other Monday I used to be on the restorative department with him and Peter Briggs, and Peter Briggs was actually assisting me do an endo with the microscopes. Crazy. 

[Jaz]
Wow. 

[Shabnam]
And it was a great experience clinically, I wasn’t getting paid for it, but I was investing that time in myself for clinical skills. I could have paid to go on a course. On the other Monday was my mom’s day. I used to take my mom out, shopping, doctor’s appointments, whatever. So that was my project to keep my mom well and happy and to also improve my clinic. And I think you can do both. But I did it by reducing the clinical day, but I cut down from five to four. What was interesting, my income didn’t change. 

[Jaz]
Oh, I hear that all the time. You know, people always say that you can go from five to four to three and a half, and income stays the same. And I think the reason for that is because you’re more focused, you have more energy, you can actually put more thought into it.

You can treat and plan better the clarity that you have. And also by the time that you get enough experience to be able to do that, you already have stability in your books and you are able to offer treatments that are more refined and bigger treatment plans for the sake of the fact that you’re doing more comprehensive dentistry.

[Shabnam]
Yeah.

[Jaz]
You’re diagnosing better. 

[Shabnam]
And also I think you just decide to identify something that you’re not good at and maybe just work on it. So for me, public speaking was an absolute hated, it just felt terrible. I read, didn’t know what I was saying, just terrible. And so I started talking to school kids. I see kids when it’s too late, I take teeth out. I get really upset by preventable disease. It just upsets me. So I said, right, I’m gonna go to all the schools because none of the kids could get NHS. I said, I’m gonna teach them preventative dentistry. So I did. So I started talking to nurseries and I talked to like 15 kids and I told Nikita and I said, “I wonder, it would be great if by the end of the year we could speak to a thousand kids.”

So I was like, right, let’s do it. So it’s like a mini project like you said. So we started to contact some on nurseries, some more schools, and then Nikita accidentally booked me an assembly. So from going 20, I went to 180. And Jaz by the end of the year, I spoke to three and a half thousand kids. 

[Jaz]
Wow. 

[Shabnam]
And when people say, how did you do that? I was like, I don’t know, just I didn’t know how, I just wanted to speak. That’s all I wanted to do. And by doing that, I got more confident speaking and then I just started putting myself out. Then just trying to do these other things where now that’s not a fear for me more. Now I feel confident speaking anywhere I go to the Dentistry Show, podcast, whatever. I’m happy anywhere now. 

And now I’m thinking, what should I do next? And you know, that’s kind of just ticking things off. I wanted to be better at swimming. Seven years I’ve been saying I wanna be better at swimming. I wasn’t actually doing anything about it. This afternoon, I have a swimming lesson with my son. He is the best cheerleader for me. He’s like, mommy, you’re doing really well. Because he is the one that told me, he said, well, if you wanna be better, you have to practice. I went, you are right. I do.

And you know, so I think of inclusive parenting a lot. I don’t think it’s work and my family like they’re separate this or that. It’s this and that. I do an open day, i’m designing a poster. I ask my daughter, what do you think of this poster? She’s a great critic for me. She’s got great taste, and you don’t realize that they pick stuff up. Like my daughter, she’s 13 now, but when she was in primary school, she set up a slime business. So I want to set up slime. Okay, so I’ve bought her, I’m investing 20 pounds of materials, and you start the business. But Jaz she made a logo, she figured out her price list, she did upsells. She had these little 

[Jaz]
That’s amazing. 

[Shabnam]
Yeah. She made different colors, she centered them. She made only certain number of certain colors because she knew they were the most popular. I’m not joking. The day of the sale parents were coming to my house with cash in an envelope to reserve colors before the sale. 

[Jaz]
That’s amazing. What amazing life lessons entrepreneurship. You’re, you’re treat, you’re, you’re teaching your daughter–

[Shabnam]
Profit. I was like, what? This is really, I’m not doing it anymore. I was like, well, you’ve got a good business. And she’s like, I don’t wanna do it. 

[Jaz]
What an excellent experience. 

[Shabnam]
How did you learn to do that? And she said, oh, I just know. But she didn’t just know. She’s just pick stuff up over time and just, you know, so you become a role model and they think things are possible. So you need to be a role model to your kids. Even if you don’t have a practice, you can be a role model that you can renovate your house or whether you just become good at cooking. My husband couldn’t really cook that much, and now he does nothing’s fixed. You can always be better at whatever you want to be better at.

[Jaz]
It’s having that growth mindset, everything you’re saying is totally revolving around that. And I love the fact that you involve your children in what you do. That’s amazing. And going swimming today and having that quality time again, it’s quality time with your child, which is great. And so let’s touch on parenthood. 

A lot of times when we’re having children, my wife was pregnant and I’m starting this business. Or I often hear, oh, we had our third child the same week we bought our second practice. I hear this all the time. So we’re at that age where you’re having kids and then you’re also starting new businesses, new ventures at the same time. So it’s never easy. It’s all these, you ebbs and flows and fantastic highs and terrible lows and that kind of stuff. 

What advice would you give to someone who has identified. Themselves as, okay, I think I want to do this. I want to become a principal. But they’re worried about juggling that family life. I know we touched on it earlier, but any other concrete advice you wanna give to someone who wants to juggle parenthood? Any advice you can give them with practice ownership? 

[Shabnam]
Yeah. So you can only control what you can control and when a practice becomes available to buy or Squat Practice, you can’t control that. So you’ve got to decide like, do you put your life on hold because of something that may happen in the future? It depends how big a passion it is for you. How much of a priority is, if it’s a massive priority, you’re just gonna make it happen regardless. 

So I think be really honest with yourself about what your priorities are in your life and that will help you make the decision. And life just happens. You can plan everything. I think sometimes it’s scared to get things wrong, and I’m like, you’re going to get things wrong just accept you’re gonna do things wrong. It’s okay. And as soon as you let go of the fact that there is no perfect time, like I know someone that bought a practice and then got a problem in his ear and then couldn’t work for like eight weeks, he had to have surgery, couldn’t work. Why you owning a practice and not be able to work for eight weeks?

You don’t plan that kind of stuff but it happens. You just have to have the mindset that whatever happens, you’re gonna manage it, you’re gonna do the best you can, and what more can you do? And you have to be honest, sometimes practices don’t work out and that’s okay. But if tomorrow anything happened to my practice, I like say I still pinch myself when I walk into my practice. I still can’t believe it’s mine. You experience something, it’s never taken away from you. 

It is just a foundation that you’re gonna build on in the future. And you build more things or different things based on that experience. So business side is hard, but you need to identify what is it that you really want in life. And I think that’s the reflection that everyone should do earlier. because you can actually just be at peace with yourself. And having kids and like we found the practice, Nikita was nine months pregnant. 

[Jaz]
Like I said, always the way when I hear it. Well, you mentioned on the business, this final chapter of this podcast, let’s talk about money. You know, how much cash in the bank should you have before even thinking, okay, I’ve got enough that I’m gonna take this risk. How much do you potentially need to borrow? Obviously everyone’s financial backgrounds and scenarios and bank of mom and dad and all that kind of stuff can factor, multitude of ways. But like what kind of anchor could you give to someone who’s perhaps a young dentist and has no idea? Like at one stage you probably had no idea how much money is enough. 

[Shabnam]
Yeah, totally. So I laugh, Jaz when people say, how much does it cost to set up a squat? I laugh because it’s completely the wrong question to be asking. The reason I say that is, is because how much your practice is gonna cost depends on you, depends on what kind of practice you wanna have, what location you wanna set up in. Do you wanna have a corporate, do you wanna single practice? Like it depends on you. What is your vision? 

If you are happy with a very cheap chair and minimal materials. Your costs are gonna be very different to mine. I could have done a two surgery practice when I set mine up. I chose to do one in the end because I wanted the nice chair and I wanted the thick Corian Surface. I wanted a really nice finish. So everyone has a pot, and how you allocate that pot is up to you.

So if you’re gonna be setting up a squat. You’re gonna be putting down at least 30% deposit. Okay? If you’re buying a practice, it’s 10%. Now how much you’re going to borrow and how much does it cost to set up a squat? So squat, roughly two surgery, squat costs between 250 to half a million. Now you’re gonna be like, that’s a very big variation.

[Jaz]
And is that a freehold or–

[Shabnam]
No lease hold. Just the, okay. Yeah. And the thing that dictates the cost of the practice the most, the biggest deciding factor for cost for a practice build is the location. Like if it’s listed building, if it’s over two stories instead of one’s floor. What are the supplies like electricity, water, pump, piping, things that you don’t even know about, that kind of stuff.

If the logistics for the supplies aren’t there, you have to bring them in. That’s gonna make it expensive. I know a practice that was on a hill and they had to pump the water up, and that pump was a massive issue for them and it increased the cost a lot. I spoke to a dentist who’s very competent and he messaged me when he was thinking he was setting up his squat and he was in the process of doing it. And I met, touched base with him recently, a year or so later, and it took him over a year to set up the squad. And he, initially, he was thinking it was gonna be about 270. In the end, it cost him over 350 And I remember the end, he was like going, do I really need to buy an ultrasonic bath? And I was like, come on, do not cut corners now.

But at the end point you’re like, how much do I spend on this sofa? How much do I spend on pens, and paper, and printers? And there’s a lot of things you forget because there is no checklist, like I said. So there’s a lot of things you need to factor in. The biggest thing I would tell everyone on this podcast to do currently is find out how much you can borrow. People are asking how much does it cost to set up a squat? 

But how much actually can you borrow? Like if your budget is only going to give you like 300, then you wouldn’t consider anything more than that. So it’s almost like when you’re buying a house, go to a broker, give them your initial financial figures, get a kind of mortgage and principle, find out roughly what they’d be happy to lend you, and then that’s your budget. And then you kind of shop accordingly. And if that budget doesn’t align with your vision of the practice you want, then you need to do something about your income. 

[Jaz]
Great. That’s it. I’m very happy with how to think about that. I hear all the time that when those who choose to start a squat or a brand new practice, because of how long it takes, could take six months, it could take a year, could take longer. They’re working as an associate while that’s being done and they’re visiting the project, visiting the site, and overseeing how it’s run and stuff. 

So people need to bear in mind about that sort of transitional period where you’re kind of working an associate while the squad is being developed. So any advice you can give on that, but then also the numbers I classically hear for the first one to three years, you’re working like a dog, you’re not making any money, you know there’s no profit yet, and thereafter, then it starts to grow. How true is that based on your experience and the experience of those in your network that you know? 

[Shabnam]
Yeah. So you have to be realistic about what you can manage. And also time is money, and also expertise costs money. So as I mentioned earlier, you have above cash and you decide how you spend it. So I decided to do compliance myself, which meant I did the entire CQC application myself, I filled in the forms, agonized over it, did everything myself. But by doing that, I saved 3000 pounds and then we spent that somewhere else. Someone else might choose to pay someone to do that all for them and then do it that way, and that’s totally fine.

So I think you need to know what your skill sets are and what you are happy to take on board. Also, I know people that project manage practice builds and like this guy, it took him over a year to actually open up. So if you think of his time that he spent managing it, all the decisions, all the things, I got an all-encompassing company to do my practice for me. 

So they designed it, built it, they project managed it. I was realistic. I’m a mom. I’ve got two kids under 4 I’m working as an associate. I don’t particularly like dealing with builders myself, and they’re smart, they choreograph things, they get the electrician on the right day, they get the chair delivered on the right day because of their network and their contacts. I was able to order my chair before I even had my lease, before I even had my finance. 

They’d already pre-ordered it for me. because they knew it might not happen. Like if we didn’t get the loan, it would’ve ended there. So they had faith in me and I trusted them and they did a fantastic job.

And like I did, they did my build in eight weeks. And then the thing that took me longer was the CQC inspection. I did it and they had to wait for the paperwork to come through so we couldn’t open until we got the certificate. 

So I prefer to pay experts to run the project for me. Others may choose to use local builders and manage the project themselves and learn about the regulations and take on that responsibility. It depends on you as an individual what you are happy to do. For me, outsourcing it was the right answer, but for others they wanna do it the slow way. Save money, do it on a budget, and it’ll take longer and that’s okay, but time, I’d rather have the practice open quicker myself.

And in terms of profit, so I opened up my practice. I think the first month that we were profitable was probably around month 15, 16. 

[Jaz]
Okay. 

[Shabnam]
And then at month 17, COVID happened. 

[Jaz]
Oh my goodness. 

[Shabnam]
Month COVID happened and then we were closed four, five months. Like I said, I wasn’t clinical because my son was shielding and we had one surgery because I decided on that lovely Corian and the one chair, which I regretted because now I need a follow time and, and another chair quickly.

So in the end we didn’t take money out of the practice. We actually installed surgery too during COVID, which was another, I think 60 grand or something. So we had to put money in, put surgery two in, that made the practice run better. And now we are still currently a two surgery practice, but we are planning to do phase three soon and we’ll open up the third room and yeah, I think what you said is realistic. 

One to four years you do work like a dog. It’s hard work. I only do two clinical days a week, but I’m working full time. But I like what I do. And I enjoy having a team and when I read my Google reviews, it just fills my heart like it. I feel like it bursts. It just makes me so proud. And also I can give dentists the environment that I wish I did have, but not just the mentorship, but also the environment in which to do it.

So that’s what I love providing for my team and my patients benefit from it as well because I don’t do it all myself. I can’t do anything without my team. My team are everything to me, and I’m very grateful for them. 

[Jaz]
Well, as I say, opportunity comes knocking. The problem is address it, overalls, and it smells like hard work. And we all have to, you know, put our graft in. Okay. If it’s something that worth having, it won’t come easy. There’s gonna be a barrier of entry. So knocking worth having comes easy. 

[Shabnam]
Yeah. People feel frustrated, and they feel stuck where they are. And if you feel frustrated and stuck where you are now, what I’ll say is you need to take action. You’re not a tree, you’re not stuck where you are. You can do something like you were in your practice in Summertown, you can move. It’s stressful moving jobs it’s not easy, but you knew that was the right thing to do. So taking action isn’t always easy.

[Jaz]
And same with you. You are proactive in the sense that if you just remained reactive and waited for that practice to come available, then you’re very proactive looking at practice. Yes. It took five years. Okay. Which is mad. But then again, you know, it took my wife eight months to decide on our sofa, our home sofa, had no sofa for eight months. Right. 

And so the reason why me and my wife would never make good practice owners because I’m very quick at making decisions, but I don’t wanna deal with any compliance. My wife is very slow at making decisions. Which is why when she wants a new car or something, I was like, that sounds great. And she’ll never actually buy one. Okay. So, which is great. So it actually works out. But yeah, I think you’ve gotta understand yourself. 

[Shabnam]
Yeah. Can I tell you something? You know that practice that I did VT in he still hasn’t sold it. 

[Jaz]
Okay? So there we are. You have to be the captain of your own ship. You have to take matters in your own hands, and I think that’s a big lesson that we can have from Boss Lady today. Shadnam thanks so much for spending time with us today. Where can we learn more from you? How can we find out about your coaching? How can we find out about your education? How can we follow you on social media?

[Shabnam]
Amazing. So yeah, you can go to shabnamzai.com and follow on Instagram, Dr. Shabnam Zai and I’d love to have a chat with any of you. 

[Jaz]
Amazing. Well, I’ll make sure I put those links in the show notes so everyone can check it out. And you know, you obviously are very experienced in the sense that you’re actually thinking about this. You’re actually helping people about this. I think it’s great that you shared what you did on here, and if anyone wants more, you make a great mentor for them, please do register yourself on Intaglio where we have a database of mentors and people might wanna book you one-to-one as well as maybe doing your sort of coaching program. So do consider making a profile on an taglio. 

[Shabnam]
Okay. Amazing. Thank you, Jaz 

Jaz’s Outro:
Well, there we have it guys. Thank you so much for listening all the way to the end. How are you feeling? Do you think like practice ownership is for you or maybe like me, you hate some parts of it so much that it may be never right for you.

Maybe you are happy as an associate like I am, but to remember guys, I have projects. I always have projects in the go. Being the best dad in the world is a project of mine. Honestly, it’s a big part of what I think about how I plan my day. I take my son to swimming. Cricket, we’re thinking of maybe starting coding on Wednesdays.

Like there’s so much I do with my kids and that for me is a really important part of my life and if I had a practice, I don’t think I can maintain it at the level I wish to. I was actually at dinner with one of my best buds, Clifton. I was speaking at the Dental Tubial Study Club at In Brighton about TMD for GDPs.

And I said to Clifton that if Protrusive could grow and grow and grow and become like on the level of let’s say, spear education, ripe, global, all those big names out there, but if my children hate me, then that is a total failure. That is not a success. 

If Protrusive goes completely, capoot goes bankrupt, and all the hard work we’ve done over the years goes to the toilet, which we very sad indeed, but imagine that happened. But my children absolutely love me and have a very strong, unbreakable relationship with them. That to me is success. And so whilst I do think I’d make a good leader and I’d run a practice like a very well-oiled machine, I’ve chosen other priorities now. 

And that’s not to say that you can’t be an amazing mother. You can’t be an amazing father. But certainly you can imagine, guys, you guys are already saying to me, Jaz how do you balance everything? And it’s because I know my limits. I know that I’ve got all these wonderful things we do with Protrusive and Intaglio all the courses. Being a clinical dentist, I do 18 hours of clinics every week, and I love it, but I can’t possibly run a practice because I’m loving what I’m doing already.

And as you heard earlier today, where there was a phase when I wasn’t loving what I was doing because the corporate took over. I was very quick to make a decision. I was very quick to move. So if you’re looking in the mirror and you’re not happy with the person you see, you’re not happy with the environment that you are in, you feel that you’re not progressing, you are staying stagnant. How about that change? How about some soul searching and what a wonderful job Shabnam did today? So please do check out her website and her educational ventures. I will put them in the show notes below. Thank you Shanan for inspiring everyone, and thank you once again guys listening all the way to the end.

If you haven’t hit that subscribe button, please do. If you know a buddy who really needs to hear this episode today. Please send it to them. Put it in your Practice WhatsApp group. I’d love you forever and ever for it. I’ll catch you on Protrusive guidance. Don’t forget the quiz to get your CPD. Thank you so much, team Protrusive.

I’ll catch you same time, same place next week. Bye for now.